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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2010
     
    WARNING, SPOILERS! DON'T READ UNTIL YOU'VE SEEN THE MOVIE
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    Because I can't stop thinking about this movie:

    Was he awake or dreaming at the end?
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2010 edited
     
    I, for one, think he is awake, so much so that I was actually shocked when I talked to a co-worker on Monday and she said "Oh yeah, at that point I knew he was still dreaming at the end." Wha??
    So I've been reading blogs/comments/chat boards about it.
    Basically there's a lot of good points to either side, but I liked Yusef's (chemist) claim the most. Since he comes form someone who was actually in the movie and worked a lot with the writer/director, I'd like to think that his viewpoint has more validity:

    But you're saying it's like some sort of crazy-ass psychotherapy session where the whole thing is a constructed narrative of massive complexity only to distract Cobb so that he will achieve his change? I mean sure, you could totally say that that's what it is. In a way, that's what we're doing to Fischer, so it's not unfounded.

    The problem for me is that you're using negative evidence to support a story that isn't there. I don't know what to say about a character who only exists before and after the movie. You're talking about a character who isn't onscreen. And I mean on one hand, it's awesome that this movie can sustain that kind of discussion. It shows you just how well-thought-through and comprehensive it is, but I mean I don't know where that kind of speculation ends. It's like people who are convinced 9/11 is an inside job. It's a mental heuristic failure to think that one or two minor details explain absolutely everything. I mean, kids wear the same clothes all the time.

    To me, it's a far more elegant story if it's a vast job that Leo has to pull off. The threat is real, the growth is real, the adversary is real. The weakness of "It's all a dream" — why we hate that, why we feel cheated when narratively anything is revealed to be all a dream — is that you've just asked me to spend so much time and emotional capital investing in the stakes of this, and you've now swept it away with the most anti-narrative structuralism that doesn't have anything to substitute in its place. It's laughing at you for even taking it seriously. You don't want to feel like a victim of the narrative, and I don't think Christopher Nolan would do that.
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2010 edited
     
    Evidence he's awake and in reality (some of these will take a second viewing to confirm :wink:)

    - Even if he was dreaming the whole time, there were far too many kicks to have woken him up by the end:
    1. Kick when Saito’s house crumbles/fills with water
    2. Second kick when he’s dunked in the tub
    3. Elevator explosion
    4. Van/water (even though he “stays” to get Saito)
    5. Explosion at snow fortress (?) The details are muddiest for me at the snow fortress. I was distracted by the skiing :bigsmile: and there was a lot of this guy here in that dream, that guy there in that dream, the van’s falling, Saito’s dying, the dude finds his dad, etc. so I need to see it again to catch more details from there.

    - Some say the kids don't age/are wearing the same clothes so that it seems like he's still dreaming BUT the credits list the kids at two different ages, showing they aged. ALSO, who knows how much real-world time has really gone by so they might not have needed to have aged.

    - Some say that while we don't see the top fall, you can hear it fall when the screen goes black. We didn't hear it b/c the audience went "ohhhh!"

    - Some have noticed that during what's presented as dream sequences, Cobb is always wearing his wedding ring, but not in "real life." At the end he's not wearing his ring, which shows he's in reality.

    - If Mal was right and jumping off the building put her back to reality, she would have "kicked" him afterwards to bring him back to reality as well.

    - IF he was still dreaming, why wouldn't he have kept Mal there? It ruins the whole revelation he had about "You're not real, you're only my imagination of my wife so you can never be as good as the real thing, I have to let you go" yet he'd be ok living with "fake" kids in a dream? Doesn't make sense.
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2010
     
    Or maybe I'm the only one who cares :cry: :wink:
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      CommentAuthorSammyD
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2010
     
    The top, when used as an example of dream vs reality, In the dream it always spins, no wobbles...so when you have the wobble at the end...
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      CommentAuthordchamp
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2010
     
    Agreed, I think it wobbled, so he's not in the dream.
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2010 edited
     
    THANK YOU. I agree. But there's just as many "points" for the people who think he's dreaming. I want Nolan to hold a movie press conference and tell us :bigsmile:
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      CommentAuthordchamp
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2010
     
    Seems to me like the majority of the evidence you cited supports the awake theory, and the still dreaming is pretty thin.

    I think it's good to have a little suspense about a plot, to make you think. All movies are thankfully not like M. Night Shamalamadingdong where he hits you over the head with his "crazy" plot twists.
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      CommentAuthorTheSasquatch
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2010 edited
     
    I JUST SAW THIS MOVIE

    It was hard not to look at this thread beforehand.

    I for one think that he is still in the dream, there are two ages mentioned in the credits because two older kids played the two kids he was speaking to on the telephone in the French bedroom, the girl who said "Grandma is shaking her head" is not a four year old. ALSO as he gets his passport stamped the symbol is shown to be the recycle sign with the line through it he drew at the cafe. The top is wobbling because the token is a projection of his subconscious (like a walking dream character) and he is really beginning to believe he is in actual reality, which he doesn't do in association with his children through most of the movie. He wasn't able to dream for himself any longer but now he was being his own architect again in limbo (which he has never left because his wife chooses not to wake him up because she feels that this is his preference since he didn't follow her, or she died long before he ever entered the creative realm, or she never existed except as a projection to begin with, along with the children). Kick number in this case is irrelevant.

    Tokens are very, very dumb of course. If any architect knows what your token is they can allow the subconscious information to fill the environment just as building a safe allows private information in. The Inception in this case is his own belief in what he sees. He feels conflict about leaving limbo at which point it seems to me he creates all of these characters and this convoluted story drawing himself deeper into lower levels and bringing himself back up again as a way to address his fear of coming back to the real world without his family (Old and alone?), or risk oblivion or madness by continually killing himself. This is why all of his allies carry game peices and have stupid names like "Areadne", they are projections of his inner drive to come to peace with his life in limbo. Note the movie begins like the dreams, no explanation of how he got to the first infiltration after seeing the elderly Japanese version of his Saito projection.

    I personally found the action scenes to be gratuitous, if you can make a rifle into a grenade launcher in dreams you can also make spikes come out of the ground and impale everyone instantly. Every dream level outside of the ice fortress for some reason has to look like downtown Berlin, and a lot of the special effect scenes were not relevant and sidetracked the action as we watched CGI slow motion explosions and mirror tricks that took me out of the story (unlike a movie that did it well, like Avatar). Why wasn't the car performing a 360 degree spin enough of a kick to wrestle people awake? Why wasn't going through the railing a strong enough kick, it shouldn't matter how many levels down you are, this is dumb of course since in the dream world you could create a sedative that worked perfectly for as long as you wanted it to- and that last line from the dying business man to Cilian Murphy was AWFUL. I felt a lot of the plot was explaining obvious things from the first few scenes "Remember when we dumped the main character in the bathtub and called it a kick to wake him up? That is what we call a kick, and we use it to wake people up."

    Also inception is ridiculously easy in real life, there are people who plant simple ideas in our mind all of the to effect behavior- we call it marketing. No dream modification required, you can subliminally change people any number of ways without their knowledge, and oh yes, we use ALL OF OUR BRAINS when we are awake, and inventing lucid dream technology would change our society to a greater degree then a few criminals running around Mombassa. Why wouldn't the main character seek therapy for his wife committing suicide? This seems a pretty easy solution to his psychological problem, which instead he risks the 'life' of the Ellen Page projection to ignore.

    If Holly's analysis is correct from a therapy standpoint then the figure not appearing in the movie would actually be Nolan, the director. He is the architect of the script execution. I really liked how he began the movie with Leonardo DiCaprio waking up in the waves, it is as if Jack from Titanic or the Shutter Island Protagonist has finally washed ashore (Shutter Island also begins with the sea), and in that way Leonardo Dicaprio is another level of reality. I hope this wasn't a literal "Christianity inception", one of my friends pointed out that when characters are named "Fischer" or "Fisher" the scriptwriter may have a secondary agenda.

    This is the extent of my analysis! I might see this movie again some day but probably not while it is still in theaters. That is what they want...
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2010
     
    Oh Will, leave it to you to do more mind blowing. We recently watched Memento again and it's making me wonder if it was all just a dream (though I'm still leaning toward not) b/c Guy Pearce's character wants to keep going around killing John Gs to give him something to do, so much so that he doesn't mind letting himself believe that the officer who helped him is the real John G and kills him too. What a shitty/sad idea, though a good movie, so I think it would fit within Nolan's shitty/sad style to leave Cobb in the dream world.
    A lot of people have pointed out the the kids were old on the phone, so at some point was he NOT dreaming and talked to his older children on the phone, but then went back in a dream to see them as younger children again? Saying the kids were older on the phone doesn't explain the reason behind the kids' age difference.
    I loved all the graphics and chases, I was sucked in; though I'm also easily entertained.

    We're going to see it again tonight (anyone can come! 7:00 Merle Hay) with sisters and a couple friends so I'm going to pick up on SO MUCH MORE :) I'll give them what they want and buy another ticket ;)
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    My thought on that was that this again was a subconscious projection, he wasn't really speaking with his children on the phone but part of his brain recognized how they had likely aged if his wife had in fact killed herself, it was his guilt on the phone indirectly criticising him for not living in reality!
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      CommentAuthorSillyYak
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2010
     
    am i the only person who doesn't think about this stuff? i just watched the movie and thought "oh, cool." the end.

    :o)
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      CommentAuthordchamp
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2010
     
    Will sez:
    I personally found the action scenes to be gratuitous, if you can make a rifle into a grenade launcher in dreams you can also make spikes come out of the ground and impale everyone instantly.

    I don't think they did that. One character was trying to shoot back at the sniper with a rifle, the other character pulled out a grenade launcher.

    Only the architect of the dream can make the crazy dream stuff happen, everyone else is constrained by those rules. A lot of your points are counter to this.

    I was entertained by the movie, even though I did have trouble falling for some of the silly parts, it was good enough for me to suspend my disbelief and have a good time watching it. That's the whole point of fiction, isn't it?
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    He pulled out a grenade launcher and said "dream bigger darling", he conjured it out of pure thought! The forger also turned himself into the business associate by sitting at a mirror and studying his face the way an actor does even though he wasn't the architect, the blonde woman at the bar (and DiCaprio had the train coming out of his brain during the initial attack even though that was the fault of his subconscious). I interpreted that as: You get magical sleep powers. Else this is just more evidence that DiCaprio is imagining all of it himself by messing up details like these changes...
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      CommentAuthordchamp
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2010
     
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    Ha! That's great.
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      CommentAuthordchamp
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2010
     
    scrooge
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      CommentAuthorHollisb
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2010
     
    :rolling:
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    I think that was even before the Hollywood master acheivement Dreamscape came out
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      CommentAuthorTheSasquatch
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2010 edited
     
    Some of the comments on the original blog post BoingBoing linked to are very revealing of Nolan:



    Was the Dark Knight a ripoff?



    Was The Prestige a ripoff?



    What would the Ducktales theme sound like if it were sung by Sir Ian McKellen?
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